I have more to write probably but wanted to get something up. Last nights session was now my 3rd brutal downswing. It was similar to my last, where my overall level of play was lacking and where coolers/beats made things that much worse.
I had one guy at a table who was really trying hard to give away his stack, but I kept failing at taking it. He played strangely, lasted for about 2 hours, so he wasn't just literally shoving ATC pre or anything. But he would make... questionable plays.
Examples?
SURE:
So we had dueled a bit already. I had KTo and flopped a K vs. him early. He snap called all in on the flop with Qd7d for a FD which he hit. A bit later I ended up all in with him when I had AX and he had AJ on an A high flop. The money had been flowing. After a long while, I had relegated myself to waiting on a good hand vs. this guy. I picked up AK in MP, raised it up, he pot-raised me back, I shipped pre. He tank-folded.
The very next hand was very similar, but he found a premium hand to call with. Well sorta anyway. Bleh
I hung in there for a long time, but wasn't the one who eventually got his money a while later. Ya free money would have been good, oh wellz.
So lets look at some suckouts/coolers why don't we? These are all pretty standard.
It wasn't all bad, but taking those hits repeatedly sure takes it toll on the roll.
I hit on the river here. Seasky is a pretty bad player a he makes a fairly absurd move here. He tries as hard as he can to make me fold my hand even though he has the nuts, but I just am too stubborn. He had made some really stupid overbets like this throughout the session and I was inclined to call him regardless. Thank goodness for getting there, as against his particular hand, my hand pretty much sucks.
This is a pretty standard line for a beginning player who is drawing and has missed. I pick up on this fact and hero call the bet for a reasonable pot. I think it's probably overall advisable to just avoid these spots, but when you know you are right, go with it.
Sometimes being the one pushing the action at your table is good. By the time he had called my preflop 4-bet, we had $6.44 in the middle, and it felt like any KK, QQ, JJ or TT type hand would just go with it on that flop, so I shoved. Turns out he had even worse.
So ya, good times. I know that at some point I got tilted because I fell into the mentality that everything was going to go wrong. I got it in with AK vs QQ, and just felt like I was going to lose no matter what (I flopped a K on an all spade board, and Villain hit a spade on the turn fwiw). This is a pretty inappropriate view to have while actually playing. I did stop once I became aware of my mental state, but a careful review of the session will review mistakes that I normally wouldn't make I am pretty sure.
Back on the horse..
Up over $80
13 years ago
3 comments:
Marsh:
Your a great player so I hope you take this as constructive criticism after a down session where you were likely not on your A game.
All of your hands look pretty standard to me with Marsh typically getting unlucky.
The one exception is the turn call against Seasky, who, to be fair, you did state is awful.
I am really hesitant to stack off as many BB as you had against a check call on the flop followed by a check shove on the turn on that board. There seem to be so few hands that you have enough pot equity against to justify a call.
Best case there you are against bottom 2 given you maybe enough outs to call off. Any other real hand and you are not priced in.
I also disagree with your comment that Seasky made a terrible play to do his absolute best to get you off a worse hand.
Let's recount the check shoves on flops or turns that the cake challengers have posted.
We have Adam with top set on a 3 club board who stacks off on the turn against a check shove for about 125BB against a flopped flush.
We have Royal who stacks off on an Ace High board with nut flush draw no pair against bottom 2.
Then we have Marsh who calls an all in check shove and gets there against a made straight on a board where he has top pair and a flush draw.
Your comment that these check shove over bets are terrible plays does not seem logical.
We have 3 very good highly experienced cake challengers who call these check shove overbets with deep stacks. Is this not what the villains want?
At the higher stakes, the check shoves are more suspect and at times warrant calls. At the lower micro stakes these players seem to be making a convincing argument that they "have it."
Jase, I do appreciate the comments.
Here is the thing with the Seasky play. Effective stacks are 150bbs. He has played with me at least enough to know that I am not some mouth-breather who is trying to get it all in here with AA.
I mean he *raised* 5.00 on the turn. When I advocated Cake Challengers shoving made hands on the turn vs. probable draws, I was assuming normal stack sizes. If you have played in these games, you know that they play very nitty. He is basically begging for a fold here, trying his absolute hardest to get me to fold, and I would fold most hands, but not a draw this strong. I think he is just killing his value and that's why I said it was "absurd" (not "terrible" like you said)
The thing is, when I call, I don't agree at all that best case is that he has bottom two. I expect him to show up with a bigger flush draw somewhat often here:
http://propokertools.com/simulator/simulate.jsp?g=he&b=5cjh4c2d&d=&h1=jctc&h2=ac8c&h3=&h4=&h5=
As you can see I am pretty happy to get it in in that spot.
I mean look at how he did play his hand. He limp-called from the SB with 63o. He flopped an open ender, but just check called. If the 2c comes he has like 2 outs and is nearly drawing dead. If the 7c comes he has one out. He is drawing to a 6 outer and we are pretty deep here.
I normally like the line, but I am folding AA, KK, QQ here and he shouldn't be trying to make me fold these when he holds the nuts imo.
Marsh:
One subtle difference on your analysis. Your read is that Seasky would potentially shove with a bigger flush draw as you believe this is what a good player does to make you fold a better hand.
Now, if you are playing against Jeh, Chuck, myself, Durr, Isildur, Zigmund, or any other aggressive player capable of making this move, then I agree you can find a call here. But you are playing against Seasky, a bad player who shoves here with the made hand. What could have happened with your top pair and flush draw had various other turn cards hit is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that you called an all in on the turn in a .02/04 NLHE 150 BB deep game with top pair and a flush draw. For this play to be profitable you need the villain to show up with air or a better flush draw a decent percentage of the time. Let 's just say 20 percent of the time for arguments sake.
In our game this may happen and you call could be rewarded. In high stakes play this could happen as well. I am still waiting for a post from anyone (and a few of you have Hold'em manager tracking all your hands) showing a microstakes player shoving 100+ BB on the turn without the nuts or near nuts. Once I see this, I may change my tune but for now I think the call was a bad play in the microstakes game.
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